Apple -- Rotten to the Core?

[Hollywood, Esq.]

I finally succumbed to the borg and got an Apple iPhone 4s in December.

I LOVE it.

No, I  HATE it . . . no, I LOVE IT . . . NO I HATE IT . . .   

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?hpw

On the other hand, I suppose I can take some comfort in the fact that the NYT is not in the business of reporting facts.  It's probably all just Google propaganda.  http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/should-the-times-be-a-truth-vigilante/

[Cap'n Ken]

Did you notice how - 11 paragraphs in to a transparent hit piece - they note this?

Apple is not the only electronics company doing business within a troubling supply system. Bleak working conditions have been documented at factories manufacturing products for Dell, Hewlett-Packard, I.B.M., Lenovo, Motorola, Nokia, Sony, Toshiba and others.

Current and former Apple executives, moreover, say the company has made significant strides in improving factories in recent years. Apple has a supplier code of conduct that details standards on labor issues, safety protections and other topics. The company has mounted a vigorous auditing campaign, and when abuses are discovered, Apple says, corrections are demanded.

And Apple’s annual supplier responsibility reports, in many cases, are the first to report abuses. This month, for the first time, the company released a list identifying many of its suppliers.

So Apple is far from the only company involved in these practices (I'd imagine the 8 others they name [but of course not in the headline]) produce a lot more units than Apple, and the units Apple produces probably represent a pretty small percentage of all such units produced in this "system".

And Apple is actually addressing the problem (are the others they mention in passing?), has written standards for their suppliers (do the others?), has launched a vigorous auditing program (have the others?), have shown themselves to often be the first to report abuses (are the others?), and have now made their supplier lists public (have the others?).

But this is a story to take down Apple, so the NY Times just ignores those questions.

Piss-poor journalism and a shameless bid for attention. The Times knows "Chinese manufacturing practices raise questions" wouldn't get the kind of attention that "Appe's iPad and the human cost for workers in China" would.

[Hollywood, Esq.]

Actually, if you read the entire piece and not just the first 8 paragraphs it does address efforts by the other - the Intel's, HP's etc. who seem to be much more pro-active, less secretive, etc.   The sum of the article definitely leave a taste in your mouth that Apple has chosen profit and consciously chosen to ignore pretty frightening practices of it's sub-contractors/suppliers.  A conclusion that seems to be supported by outside independent monitoring groups, etc.

As an aside, I've been involved in contracts with, ahem, said named party as well as HP, Intel and Google in the past 12 months.  Guess which one had nothing in it about labor/employment practices for subcontractors?

[Cap'n Ken]

Actually, if you read the entire piece and not just the first 8 paragraphs it does address efforts by the other - the Intel's, HP's etc. who seem to be much more pro-active, less secretive, etc.   The sum of the article definitely leave a taste in your mouth that Apple has chosen profit and consciously chosen to ignore pretty frightening practices of it's sub-contractors/suppliers.  A conclusion that seems to be supported by outside independent monitoring groups, etc.

As an aside, I've been involved in contracts with, ahem, said named party as well as HP, Intel and Google in the past 12 months.  Guess which one had nothing in it about labor/employment practices for subcontractors?

You crack me up. Oh, yes, this story talks a whole lot about other companies manufacturing in China - not an Apple story at all.

Yes, here is the totality of what else it mentions about other companies:

Paragraph 11

Apple is not the only electronics company doing business within a troubling supply system. Bleak working conditions have been documented at factories manufacturing products for Dell, Hewlett-Packard, I.B.M., Lenovo, Motorola, Nokia, Sony, Toshiba and others.

Paragraph 30

Factories in Chengdu manufacture products for hundreds of companies. But Mr. Lai was focused on Foxconn Technology, China’s largest exporter and one of the nation’s biggest employers, with 1.2 million workers. The company has plants throughout China, and assembles an estimated 40 percent of the world’s consumer electronics, including for customers like Amazon, Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Nintendo, Nokia and Samsung.

Paragraph 48

“We could have saved lives, and we asked Apple to pressure Foxconn, but they wouldn’t do it,” said the BSR consultant, who asked not to be identified because of confidentiality agreements. “Companies like H.P. and Intel and Nike push their suppliers. But Apple wants to keep an arm’s length, and Foxconn is their most important manufacturer, so they refuse to push.”

Paragraphs 65,66

Many major technology companies have worked with factories where conditions are troubling. However, independent monitors and suppliers say some act differently. Executives at multiple suppliers, in interviews, said that Hewlett-Packard and others allowed them slightly more profits and other allowances if they were used to improve worker conditions.

“Our suppliers are very open with us,” said Zoe McMahon, an executive in Hewlett-Packard’s supply chain social and environmental responsibility program. “They let us know when they are struggling to meet our expectations, and that influences our decisions.”

Paragraphs 93,94

Some other technology companies operate differently.

“We talk to a lot of outsiders,” said Gary Niekerk, director of corporate citizenship at Intel. “The world’s complex, and unless we’re dialoguing with outside groups, we miss a lot.”

Paragraph 97

People like Ms. White of Harvard say that until consumers demand better conditions in overseas factories — as they did for companies like Nike and Gap, which today have overhauled conditions among suppliers — or regulators act, there is little impetus for radical change. Some Apple insiders agree.

Wow, real comprehensive look at the manufacturing by all those companies, and they sure did ask some hard questions. Six of 99 paragraphs actually mentioned some other company!

Hey, at least you semi-admitted what your bias is here.

[insan0]

As an aside, I've been involved in contracts with, ahem, said named party as well as HP, Intel and Google in the past 12 months.  Guess which one had nothing in it about labor/employment practices for subcontractors?

As a current subcontractor to HP, and a frequent worker around HP employees and contractors over the last 15 years I can say HP's employment practices are pretty sleazy at times - and that's here in the USA, not China.

[Hollywood, Esq.]

As an aside, I've been involved in contracts with, ahem, said named party as well as HP, Intel and Google in the past 12 months.  Guess which one had nothing in it about labor/employment practices for subcontractors?

As a current subcontractor to HP, and a frequent worker around HP employees and contractors over the last 15 years I can say HP's employment practices are pretty sleazy at times - and that's here in the USA, not China.

Perhaps -- but isn't that orders of magnitude different than near slave-labor conditions, indentured servitude and exploitation of workers?    Certainly anyone who that HP did not adhere to US laws has options -- state labor boards, EEOC, mobility, etc. 

That there have been problems at Foxconn is well known and documented.  That it has related to Apple production is well known and documented.  So, can we say there is an "issue" and gross disparity in working conditions in China that stuffs Apple's coffers? (And to some extent others as well perhaps).   Have you been to Shenzhen?  Wuhan?  It's not for the faint of heart.  I can think of no other place I've been where the overwhelming thought I had was "Orwellian".  Which, is, well more than just a bit ironic.

[Cap'n Ken]

As an aside, I've been involved in contracts with, ahem, said named party as well as HP, Intel and Google in the past 12 months.  Guess which one had nothing in it about labor/employment practices for subcontractors?

As a current subcontractor to HP, and a frequent worker around HP employees and contractors over the last 15 years I can say HP's employment practices are pretty sleazy at times - and that's here in the USA, not China.

Perhaps -- but isn't that orders of magnitude different than near slave-labor conditions, indentured servitude and exploitation of workers?    Certainly anyone who that HP did not adhere to US laws has options -- state labor boards, EEOC, mobility, etc. 

That there have been problems at Foxconn is well known and documented.  That it has related to Apple production is well known and documented.  So, can we say there is an "issue" and gross disparity in working conditions in China that stuffs Apple's coffers? (And to some extent others as well perhaps).   Have you been to Shenzhen?  Wuhan?  It's not for the faint of heart.  I can think of no other place I've been where the overwhelming thought I had was "Orwellian".  Which, is, well more than just a bit ironic.

Wow, what a gracious admission ... perhaps it's somewhat conceivable that companies other than Apple might possibly in some way act in ways that similarly aren't good to a certain extent?

I'd be interested in a story that actually examines industry-wide practices and doesn't so obviously look to take down Apple. And I'd be interested in discussion that doesn't so obviously come from an anti-Apple bias.

[Hollywood, Esq.]

Hey, at least you semi-admitted what your bias is here.

And your point is . . . ?   Is that a rebuttal arguing that Apple is exemplary?  LOL  I hardly think the article even begins to purport to be a "comprehensive survey" - you're going to have to look elsewhere for that.

And it certainly does not in my mind wash the hands clean of any other US companies that subcontract their manufacturing to China.

But if you've read the series, and even more generally, you're not aware of the disparate labor conditions existing in SE Asia and the potential for exploitation?  And in Apple's case there's been some quite visible incidents related to their specific manufacturing.  Maybe it exists for others, cant say I've read about it myself.

[Hollywood, Esq.]

Wow, what a gracious admission ... perhaps it's somewhat conceivable that companies other than Apple might possibly in some way act in ways that similarly aren't good to a certain extent?

I'd be interested in a story that actually examines industry-wide practices and doesn't so obviously look to take down Apple. And I'd be interested in discussion that doesn't so obviously come from an anti-Apple bias.

The fact that you want to read an article other than the one that was written seems, well, beside the point.  Perhaps there's a story there too.  But in the instant case, Apple is an extraordinary company -- and from many external sources it can be said that their chain of supply and manufacturing has made extraordinary demands on sub-contractors to keep their constant reinvention and profit machine going.  Hardly a shock it would attract interest and examination -- and specifically because unlike HP, Dell, Intel -- there have been notorious public incident (and that's saying something when it occurs inside China) that have received major press attention and directly connected to their specific manufacturing.

I hardly consider the article definitive - but think it raises very interesting questions about the costs incurred concomitantly with Apple's extraordinary success, the ability of the US to compete at all in manufacturing, how US companies undoubtedly exploit labor conditions (lax regulation, worker protection, etc.) in the new global marketplace.   And it's not a one-off situation.  American's blissfully obsess over their gadgets and cheap cellphones, flatscreens ad nausea and at the same time wonder where all the good paying, middle class jobs have gone.

[Cap'n Ken]

Hey, at least you semi-admitted what your bias is here.

And your point is . . . ?   Is that a rebuttal arguing that Apple is exemplary?  LOL  I hardly think the article even begins to purport to be a "comprehensive survey" - you're going to have to look elsewhere for that.

And it certainly does not in my mind wash the hands clean of any other US companies that subcontract their manufacturing to China.

But if you've read the series, and even more generally, you're not aware of the disparate labor conditions existing in SE Asia and the potential for exploitation?  And in Apple's case there's been some quite visible incidents related to their specific manufacturing.  Maybe it exists for others, cant say I've read about it myself.

My point is the article is a hit piece on Apple because writing about Apple gets you attention. If Apple's manufacturing in China is an issue, the manufacturing of all devices by all manufacturers is, but the New York Times isn't interested in doing that.

That was my point from the beginning. You then tried to act like that story does, in fact, address the industry as a whole. I showed why what's a laughable statement that only reinforces that you have some kind of anti-Apple (or pro-HP?) agenda you're pushing with this thread.

[Cap'n Ken]

Wow, what a gracious admission ... perhaps it's somewhat conceivable that companies other than Apple might possibly in some way act in ways that similarly aren't good to a certain extent?

I'd be interested in a story that actually examines industry-wide practices and doesn't so obviously look to take down Apple. And I'd be interested in discussion that doesn't so obviously come from an anti-Apple bias.

The fact that you want to read an article other than the one that was written seems, well, beside the point.  Perhaps there's a story there too.  But in the instant case, Apple is an extraordinary company -- and from many external sources it can be said that their chain of supply and manufacturing has made extraordinary demands on sub-contractors to keep their constant reinvention and profit machine going.  Hardly a shock it would attract interest and examination -- and specifically because unlike HP, Dell, Intel -- there have been notorious public incident (and that's saying something when it occurs inside China) that have received major press attention and directly connected to their specific manufacturing.

I hardly consider the article definitive - but think it raises very interesting questions about the costs incurred concomitantly with Apple's extraordinary success, the ability of the US to compete at all in manufacturing, how US companies undoubtedly exploit labor conditions (lax regulation, worker protection, etc.) in the new global marketplace.   And it's not a one-off situation.  American's blissfully obsess over their gadgets and cheap cellphones, flatscreens ad nausea and at the same time wonder where all the good paying, middle class jobs have gone.

So we agree - the NY Times wrote about Apple not because Apple necessarily represents the most significant problem in China or something, but simply because Apple is a popular topic to write about.

It would be great to be able to compare its practices to the practices of its competitors (how many devices does Apple produce in China compared to HP, Sony, Nokia, etc. etc.? Dunno - nobody's interested in telling me), but again nobody seems to want to do that.

[nd]

I finally succumbed to the borg and got an Apple iPhone 4s in December.

I LOVE it.

No, I  HATE it . . . no, I LOVE IT . . . NO I HATE IT . . .   

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?hpw

On the other hand, I suppose I can take some comfort in the fact that the NYT is not in the business of reporting facts.  It's probably all just Google propaganda.  http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/should-the-times-be-a-truth-vigilante/

Me too!  Never really wanted one, but Siri was given to me as a B-Day present.   Siri is now totally my BFF.  I love her.  Sometimes I feel bad about it...the little, innocent, overworked, exploited children that made her for me...but then I talk to Siri and I feel better!!!!!!

[Cap'n Ken]

I finally succumbed to the borg and got an Apple iPhone 4s in December.

I LOVE it.

No, I  HATE it . . . no, I LOVE IT . . . NO I HATE IT . . .   

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?hpw

On the other hand, I suppose I can take some comfort in the fact that the NYT is not in the business of reporting facts.  It's probably all just Google propaganda.  http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/should-the-times-be-a-truth-vigilante/

Me too!  Never really wanted one, but Siri was given to me as a B-Day present.   Siri is now totally my BFF.  I love her.  Sometimes I feel bad about it...the little, innocent, overworked, exploited children that made her for me...but then I talk to Siri and I feel better!!!!!!

If it makes you feel better, little exploited Asian children did not make Siri. Grown up Asian engineers working in California did.

[nd]

I finally succumbed to the borg and got an Apple iPhone 4s in December.

I LOVE it.

No, I  HATE it . . . no, I LOVE IT . . . NO I HATE IT . . .   

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/26/business/ieconomy-apples-ipad-and-the-human-costs-for-workers-in-china.html?hpw

On the other hand, I suppose I can take some comfort in the fact that the NYT is not in the business of reporting facts.  It's probably all just Google propaganda.  http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/01/12/should-the-times-be-a-truth-vigilante/

Me too!  Never really wanted one, but Siri was given to me as a B-Day present.   Siri is now totally my BFF.  I love her.  Sometimes I feel bad about it...the little, innocent, overworked, exploited children that made her for me...but then I talk to Siri and I feel better!!!!!!

If it makes you feel better, little exploited Asian children did not make Siri. Grown up Asian engineers working in California did.

No!  Mine is not the prototype.  Engineers "engineered" Siri.  But my lil Siri was made, as in manufactured, in part by little kids.

[Gmoney]

Just thought this was closely related enough to the topic that it was worth sharing:

Microsoft probes mass suicide threat at China plant

Apple's hardly the only one, and it seems others are likely far worse...