Neighbors no like Kirkwood Bar and Grill

[Big Larry]

People can't live in their overpriced homes they bought in 2006 without noise, chaos, etc. from an establishment that doesn't even cater to their taste in venue, and it can't help but become a race/class issue.   What are you gonna do?  We've got what I've heard referred to as a 'seething-underclass' in this city, we've got racial resentment on both sides, we've got black political leaders who choose to either play it up for ignoble purposes or stick their heads in the sand about it.

Sounds like Brooklyn.

[urban cannibals]

Yes, the "in your faceness" is exhausting.

Do you know how many times a week someone walks into the store with a confederate flag on their hat/shirt/tattoo?
I (this is Doria by the way) have to serve these people b/c I'm a business owner.
As a private citizen, I don't tolerate it and generally have the luxury of ignoring people who are brandishing it.
It's hard to separate the two and even harder to sublimate who I am, what I believe and how I feel about myself and my family just to sell a few sandwiches.

When I moved here from the northeast, the state flag was 1/2 confederate.
It sends a very clear and distinct message to anyone who doesn't view it as historical.
It's incredibly burdensome and it puts you on high alert (physically, psychologically and emotionally). I have the same feeling of being on an elevator or parking deck at night alone with someone with a confederate flag on them as some people feel being alone/around a lot of black people in similar vulnerable situations.

After 15 years, I'm never quite prepared for it, it sets my teeth on edge every time I encounter it and tends to inform a lot of my interaction with other people for hours afterward...sometimes days.

I grew up in the ghetto of Trenton, NJ but went to school with the Menendez brothers in Princeton, NJ. Eric was in my class and was a friend of mine. I was lucky that I got to see this extreme polarity even though it was torture while I was experiencing it. A roach actually crawled out of my sleeping bag at a slumber party at my best friend's mansion. The really frustrating part was that I borrowed it from a friend down the street so it wasn't even mine. Good times.

Anyway, what I learned from my years living this way was that having money and/or being white doesn't guarantee you being a good person any more than not having money and/or being a "minority" doesn't guarantee you're going to turn out bad yet people still hold these stereotypes as truths when there is ample evidence proving otherwise.

And this: everyone is someone else's "Asshole".
It's just true.
So, this business owner could very well just be a jerk with no self awareness (I don't know) or he could be someone with a valid point of view. Who knows...

[Mudd]

What has softened my opinion of the relations in the South, however, is that the guy is an exception, not the rule, and that I have far more daily interactions with black people down here than I ever had in Indiana, or Minnesota (bastion of white liberal paternalism), or Massachusetts.  Proximity is bound to foster argument, but it also comes with more capacity for growth and understanding.  I don't think it was any surprise that, according to the census, the South was leading in interracial marriages.

That's pretty much how I feel. When I was growing up (in NJ/NYC), I had far fewer interactions with black people than I do down here. We were raised to not tolerate prejudice - we even had a class about it in school - but there were only a couple of black kids in the school! It wasn't until I moved South that I made friends and worked with black people.

[LClayton]

What has softened my opinion of the relations in the South, however, is that the guy is an exception, not the rule, and that I have far more daily interactions with black people down here than I ever had in Indiana, or Minnesota (bastion of white liberal paternalism), or Massachusetts.  Proximity is bound to foster argument, but it also comes with more capacity for growth and understanding.  I don't think it was any surprise that, according to the census, the South was leading in interracial marriages.

That's pretty much how I feel. When I was growing up (in NJ/NYC), I had far fewer interactions with black people than I do down here. We were raised to not tolerate prejudice - we even had a class about it in school - but there were only a couple of black kids in the school! It wasn't until I moved South that I made friends and worked with black people.

Huh.  My school's current stat is 61% white.  That sounds about like it was when I went to school there as well.  I know the wealthy 'burbs on LI were either predominantly Jewish or predominantly WASP, but my town was pretty middle/working class.   

[lorelei]

There might be candor on one side down here, but it certainly isn't coming from the white side.  So that duplicity ALSO exists with regards to race, IMHO.  Especially in the white, upper middle class, non-flaming liberal, well-educated demographic (how's THAT for demographic specificity?).  Who also, of course, have a lot of money and political power.  (BTW -  I'm not saying, even for a second, that they always, or even ever wield that finanicial or political power in a way that intentionally hurts black people.  I'm just making note of it). 

My big problem is there's this huge backlog of former-oppression related mess in society down here.  And it doesn't seem like it will ever go away.  And this bar owner's reaction to this situation is the perfect example of that.  What a mess!  I mean, what a totally ridiculous clusterfuck.  People can't live in their overpriced homes they bought in 2006 without noise, chaos, etc. from an establishment that doesn't even cater to their taste in venue, and it can't help but become a race/class issue.   What are you gonna do?  We've got what I've heard referred to as a 'seething-underclass' in this city, we've got racial resentment on both sides, we've got black political leaders who choose to either play it up for ignoble purposes or stick their heads in the sand about it.  We've got longstanding infrastructure problems here that have their roots in racism/classism that nobody will ever do anything about.  Where to begin?  When it both affects my quality of life AND makes me feel frustrated that there appears to be absolutely nothing that can ever be done about it, through politics, through activism, through individual efforts, it really makes me want to throw my hands up and move on.   

And just so you know I'm not being totally one-sided here, I totally concede to your point about 'separate but equal as far as we know'.  I wasn't thrilled that every single person on the T with me in Boston on about 75% of my rides.  I'm not thrilled that the city I love with all my heart managed to effectively eradicate the minority/poor population through inflated real estate prices and Giuliani's terrifying police state throughout the late nineties.  These are things that don't fill me with pride, believe me.  But its extreme impact plus its 'in-your-faceness' down here is really, really hard to deal with on a daily basis.

this.this.this.this.

THIS is what pissed me off so badly about that article that I posted a while back that talked about Atlanta and it's 'City Too Busy To Hate' BS.

[lorelei]

That's pretty much how I feel. When I was growing up (in NJ/NYC), I had far fewer interactions with black people than I do down here. We were raised to not tolerate prejudice - we even had a class about it in school - but there were only a couple of black kids in the school! It wasn't until I moved South that I made friends and worked with black people.

I grew up here. There were two black kids, one hispanic girl, and an asian guy in my senior class of 200+
The crowd I was friends with looked at the people with the confederate flags as ignorant and poor. Most of them lived in the slum apartments or in the trailer park. We figured they didn't know any better because they didn't grow up with the luxury of sesame street and electric company where we all learned that racism was just dumb. We learned in AP biology that we were closer to africans than vikings, so visible race wasn't even a real thing. We didn't share their views, we didn't tolerate their conversations, we just wrote them off as a thankfully dying breed.


Then came the Rodney King riots. A group of young men tried to flip over my car with me in it. I could not believe the anger and hatred, and had no idea where it was coming from or why. Yeah, it was really naive, but I was incredibly shocked. I learned racism was not only not ok, but just incredibly stupid and false. I assumed everyone else was learning the same thing.

A big part of me is a little angry that I grew up being spoon-fed this "everything is ok" bs.
We don't talk about race in this country. What LC said about a seething underclass is so dead on it isn't even funny. We are totally unprepared to deal with this problem, and right now t seems like everyone is just choosing to hate on Hispanics (illegal immigrants) because it's less messy than talking about the real issues.

[LClayton]

There might be candor on one side down here, but it certainly isn't coming from the white side.  So that duplicity ALSO exists with regards to race, IMHO.  Especially in the white, upper middle class, non-flaming liberal, well-educated demographic (how's THAT for demographic specificity?).  Who also, of course, have a lot of money and political power.  (BTW -  I'm not saying, even for a second, that they always, or even ever wield that finanicial or political power in a way that intentionally hurts black people.  I'm just making note of it). 

My big problem is there's this huge backlog of former-oppression related mess in society down here.  And it doesn't seem like it will ever go away.  And this bar owner's reaction to this situation is the perfect example of that.  What a mess!  I mean, what a totally ridiculous clusterfuck.  People can't live in their overpriced homes they bought in 2006 without noise, chaos, etc. from an establishment that doesn't even cater to their taste in venue, and it can't help but become a race/class issue.   What are you gonna do?  We've got what I've heard referred to as a 'seething-underclass' in this city, we've got racial resentment on both sides, we've got black political leaders who choose to either play it up for ignoble purposes or stick their heads in the sand about it.  We've got longstanding infrastructure problems here that have their roots in racism/classism that nobody will ever do anything about.  Where to begin?  When it both affects my quality of life AND makes me feel frustrated that there appears to be absolutely nothing that can ever be done about it, through politics, through activism, through individual efforts, it really makes me want to throw my hands up and move on.   

And just so you know I'm not being totally one-sided here, I totally concede to your point about 'separate but equal as far as we know'.  I wasn't thrilled that every single person on the T with me in Boston on about 75% of my rides.  I'm not thrilled that the city I love with all my heart managed to effectively eradicate the minority/poor population through inflated real estate prices and Giuliani's terrifying police state throughout the late nineties.  These are things that don't fill me with pride, believe me.  But its extreme impact plus its 'in-your-faceness' down here is really, really hard to deal with on a daily basis.

this.this.this.this.

THIS is what pissed me off so badly about that article that I posted a while back that talked about Atlanta and it's 'City Too Busy To Hate' BS.

Yeah, I realized that after I read your later comments on that post. 

[eavjackets]

Doria, I totally get what you're saying, but keep in mind that some of the folks coming into UC with the confederate battle flag on garments or tattoos are doing so ironically. I mean, I remember Andre 3000 rocking a confederate flag belt buckle for a while there.

I also want to say this: don't waste too much of your time and energy worrying about a flag that 80 pct of the folks who purport to "honor our confederate dead" are mis-identifying anyway. I guess I've finally reached that point my Nan used to tell me about - I don't waste time on assholes and I don't suffer fools.

[Clue]

Thanks for answering LClayton.  That creating some good conversation. 

I am somewhat amazed today at how much energy is put into this issue by people on all sides.  I feel it is much easier for someone to believe that they lived in a "better" situation as related to race relations when the races pretty much segregate themselves.  Now, don't get me wrong I don't actually think that we should inherently feel that those that do this are bad people.  I think it is human nature for people to gravitate to those like themselves when put into an unfamiliar situation.  However, from my experience of growing up in a military town where people find it necessary for survival to let go of these natural tendencies a greater sense of freedom when dealing with a race outside of your own is created. 

[Flower Lady]

"Nobody is doing anything about it" is not true. Lots of people in this city are working hard to break the boundaries of race,  class & ability - however it is often invisible work and very low on the radar of most people. If there was a greater interest in general, and people were more motivated to make a difference, there would be change.
I look at the little things that make a huge difference very day. Look at LOTJ and Nhen and others who volunteer at Brannon Towers bingo. Anyone can live there, everyone is able to play bingo if they like. 
The Friendship Center in Ormewood Park is as in-your-face with these issues as could be. We have considerably "wealthy" (middle class/upper middle class) volunteers come to work side by side with the poor, marginalized and ill. It takes time for every person who comes to realize we are all just human - and the differences we all see begin to stop. There are some individuals there who never knew a single Caucasian person for most of their life growing up in Atlanta. Conversely, there are people who never knew a poor, mentally-ill or mentally disabled person before in their lives. There are many other Buzzers like SB making a huge difference in lives of people in our community every single day. The Kids Club, folks working really hard at the East Atlanta Farmers Market, Truly Living Well, "new" resident neighborhood kids enrolling in Burgess-Peterson (and many of our other fine schools) and the Edgewood Crew gang.... it's a small, often silent group slowly infiltrating a community near you.   The problem is you won't see a change if people don't become the change. Politicians etc. don't lead the way on social change, they are only a refection of the change of people who vote them into power (yes, I realize what democracy is in these times, bear with me here)...Doria is BEING the change as she waits on people that she is unsure of - it is making that relationship even so slightly personal that can begin to make changes. 
What is less subtle that we see every day is the hate and lingering confusion, because it is often loud and aggressive and in-your face. I say confusion because I still think that is what happened with much of Atlanta politics so many years ago. No, we can't move on from this right now, it seems. Hopefully, some day the youngsters will.

[nd]

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/15345791/neighborhood-fight-over-bar

Man, CBS Atlanta just loves us and our neighbors!!!!  So much attention!!!!

[Maru32]

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/15345791/neighborhood-fight-over-bar

Man, CBS Atlanta just loves us and our neighbors!!!!  So much attention!!!!

I think that much of the credit and "Thanks" goes to Shooter for that. 

[Bunni]

"To make a man go out of business after he spend money when they should give him a chance," said Begner.

jesus christ, I hope that is a dictation error and not how the lawyer actually spoke. 

[angryuser]

"To make a man go out of business after he spend money when they should give him a chance," said Begner.

jesus christ, I hope that is a dictation error and not how the lawyer actually spoke.

ha. I actually had a response going mocking someone who would hire a lawyer that talks like that (I'm beginning to see the neighborhood's problem with you) but figured someone would play the racist card. 

[barbecuesteve]

"To make a man go out of business after he spend money when they should give him a chance," said Begner.

jesus christ, I hope that is a dictation error and not how the lawyer actually spoke.

ha. I actually had a response going mocking someone who would hire a lawyer that talks like that (I'm beginning to see the neighborhood's problem with you) but figured someone would play the racist card. 

It's a transcription error, and it's also cut so you can't know if he was speaking before or after. "... to make a man go out of business after spending money when they ought to give him a chance ..." is really what we have on the tape. In the lawyer's other clips he sounds normal.

But even correctly transcribed, the meaning is ridiculous, too. There's risk associated with a business venture. You put money in and hope you'll get more money out. No one OWES you anything, really. If you build a fireworks testing facility in a neighborhood, don't be surprised when the neighbors wreck your investment.